SPEAKER_01 0:08

We've known each other for a long time. We've um, you know, two Brits in America. I followed you, admittedly, you've been here longer than me. Um, you know, you don't work for uh you don't work for a big bank anymore, you're working for an American firm, so you can now you can now safely say America's the best country on earth.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

I've got two passports down, I've been careful. I've got two, I'm h I'm hedging my bets, but I love this country and uh yeah, been here for many years. It's a wonderful place to raise a family and daughter business.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

And your career's flourished here. You you you know, with HSBC, you were all over the world, weren't you? You were in the UK, you were in the Middle East, I I remember very well that you lived on the palm.

unknown 0:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Um you've been everywhere. But but if I mean tell tell us about that, tell us about that path and and and so what that did to tee up your career.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

You feel it sounds like I'm talking to Michael Aspell, but let's go for it. Um this is your life. This is my life, yeah. So uh banker for 25 years now, which makes me feel old, a few grey hairs to show for it. I was uh so I was with HSBC for many years, started back in London originally as a graduate trainee, and then was really fortunate to spend time across the world, as you said, Dan. So spent time in Hong Kong, uh, Dubai, London, then New York, all the time as an infrastructure banker, pretty much every sector you could think of within infrastructure, but a lot, a lot of focus on energy and power during that time. And then uh, as you know very well, fast forward to sort of 2020, early 2020, I moved over to CIBC to lead their project finance business, where the core of the business was renewable energy. Um, and during my time there, my role evolved further to become head of US corporate banking, which included a lot of other businesses as well. So, yeah, so it's been a it's been a fantastic journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

A lot happened in that six years, didn't it? I mean, you were promoted a few times, you built an unbelievable team. I was honoured to be part of that working with you, but um I mean I, you know, you you that business changed a lot for the better, in my view, over that time.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, it was amazing. Great, really good memories, Dan. As you said, we built we built the team up a lot. I think um took it from sort of 30 to 100 people, give or take in US corporate banking, so we kept you busy and uh and many others. And um and really, you know, really good friends made as well. It's one thing I love about this industry, some really good friendships that will last forever. So it was good uh good time, good memories.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

And great people at CIBC. I'm not just saying that as a plug because still love CIBC and working with Inesh to uh yeah to continue to take that business forward, and she's doing a great job. Yeah. But I really mean that. I mean, from the Laurie Mahan, who um uh you know that's where the relationship with CIBC for one such uh began, and Laurie's very dear to me, as you know, but just a lot of great people who've been there a long time, and and it must have been tough to leave.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yeah, it was, yeah. And as you know, these um these things evolve organically in your career, Dan. You know, you don't sort of plan them when when you when you sort of uh make changes, but um no regrets. You know, I think as I look back on that over the whole 25 years we've just spun through in a c in a minute or two, it's been uh an amazing journey, but I'm really excited for now what's to come. So lots of cool stuff ahead of us.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

We'll get into that in a minute, because everyone's talking about crux, and that's why I wanted to get you on the podcast. Everyone's talking about crooks, it's a big story, and rightly so. Um but we'll get it, we'll get into that. So, yeah, firstly, I just want to understand because you are you know have been Mr. Renewables, right? You came to the States, you really became a uh a well-known figure in the renewable space. Back in the day, we used to, in the very early days of renewables, because I was an infra recruiter, I was probably the first one there was, and and and everyone laughed at infrastructure, they thought it was dull and boring, and it was PFI, PPP, and as they say here, P3, and it was a bit dull. And then renewables became a thing, and and it was it tended to be kind of you know quite sort of weird uh extrovert uh people in sort of red trousers that were into renewables, and and and everyone thought they were a bit a bit wacky. Um but you would you were one of the earlier guys that was into renewables, and um, you know, and you stuck with it, and it's become this whole energy transition world. Everyone wants to be part of it now. No one's laughing about it now. Everyone thinks this is you know, it's it's a huge magnet, actually, for talent. A lot of people want to come and work in it, but you've been there, I think, from the start. You know, what is it about that the sector that pulled you in? It became a passion for you and and the main focus of your career.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah, it's um you're right. And look, it was um it was interesting, Dan. It was just I remember it quite well actually. It was just after I arrived in the US, and I'd come over from from the Middle East and I was helping HSBC build the the North American practice over here. And um I was it was funny, I was um chatting to a client, believe it or not, at a pizza restaurant in Colorado. I remember it vividly, and we got talking about uh I'm not gonna say where it was, but it was in Colorado, and uh we got talking about a very exciting renewables project he was working on with his company, literally just over a pizza and a glass of wine. And I remember thinking that feels like something we, you know, at HSBC and we broader in banking should be a lot more of when we got into the details and talking about the technology and where it's sat on the grid and everything. And that was that that was it, that was the spark down. That was the first so we we did it, we supported that climb, and that was the first of many more to come. And we, as you know, we built that business business at HSBC and and then beyond. So, yeah, I mean, as you said, I I do I genuinely love this sector, and um, you know, I care about climate change, I see it all around me every day for sure. I believe I deeply believe in renewable energy technology, it's cost competitiveness, um, the strong investment opportunity it represents, which you know, we're talking a bit about today. And also, as you were saying earlier, it's this sector is really full of such great people who all by and large feel the same way about the first two things I just said. You know, they're mission-driven and they understand the investment thesis as well. So, um, you know, you and I were together a few days ago, Dan, at a New York Climate Week event, and um, as I looked around the room, I remember thinking these are people who you and I have known for decades across different organizations, but we're all still working in this sort of shared sector and and commitment to solving today's pressing clean energy challenges and broader infrastructure challenges, and I really love that. It's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, well, look, you know, and it shows you've you've I've I've always known that that you're a you're a true believer and you're really passionate on a personal level about what you do. I I I can't say that for everyone. I think for some people, and fair enough, it is look, you know, it's a job, there's a lot of money to be made in the sector. There's you know, that's also true. And but I think for you, I think what's great is you know you can help build a hopefully a really successful business doing something that you're really passionate about. Um, so on to that point that you just made, that because that is, I mean, and and Crux has got a got a role in this. Um and again, we'll come back to Crux. I just want to figure out what is the actual let's talk first of all about what the problem is that Crux is is trying to help solve. And to your point, we were together the other night at a at a great event, and old faces and and some younger faces are all essentially trying to solve a problem, and and and that is you know the demand, the power demand. Certainly in the US, it's a I'm not saying it's not a global problem, but here in the US, which is where you and I are uh are located, it's a massive focus. It's been um obviously the the the the main topic has been AI data centers financing compute, which has been uh you know, recently two podcasts ago, we had Sarah Freyer from OpenAI, who we've been working with from that side of things to try and solve the problem. Um, and the big question hanging over everyone is will the US meet demand to get where it's going? What's your view on that? And maybe you can, for the listeners, from your much more uh knowledgeable perspective than mine, explain what the challenge really is.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah, no, no, it's a great question, and a lot a lot to unpack there, and I think we should spend a bit of time on this one. So um, firstly, I mean, yes, as you said just at the top, we're in a period of historically high levels of power demand, right? We haven't seen this for a generation, and there's a lot of factors there, as you said. It's it's mass electrification across our economy, um, the return of onshore manufacturing, of course, data center build out, which is very topical at the moment. We're seeing huge investor appetite in the build-out of domestic energy and the infrastructure surrounding that to build to meet this demand. Our data actually shows that CapEx in American clean energy and manufacturing is on track to hit about 180 billion this year, which is way up on last year. Um, I think what's really interesting, Dan, is that with regards to the kind of will part of your question, will we meet demand? There's actually a few things to look at there. Um, first, there are a lot of bottlenecks in capital deployment, right? These projects are incredibly capital-intensive, and that capital's often historically been quite expensive to raise. Uh, the systems for capital investment, by that I mean the processes through which these deals get done is fragmented and inefficient for sure. Projects need different types of capital at different stages. So, tax equity, preferred equity, debt capital, construction lending, development lending. Right now, those all can come from different capital providers, which all need different due diligence, costs, execution risk spread across many, many different parties. And by the way, I know we'll get into this, but this is one of the reasons I joined Crux. We we really envision a new way of doing these deals with very smart people, with decades of expertise, armed with market-leading intelligence and coupled with a very technology-led approach. But back onto the bottlenecks point more broadly, I mean, permitting is also worth mentioning, right? This can be a massive roadblock in the country we're seeing at the moment. So we've actually recently released a report about this. We surveyed a lot of our renewable energy developer clients and IPPs, and of projects delayed or abandoned in the last 12 months, 94% of them said federal permitting was the major factor, right? That was over 11 gigawatts of projects, and that was just the clients we spoke to. So if you extrapolate that over the industry, it's likely a much, much bigger problem, even that than that quite thought-provoking number. Um, and then and then, sort of going deeper into your question, Dan, as well. Well, I also what I think a lot about at the moment is also what's the power going to cost the consumer? Not just can we get the power, which there are those challenges we talked about, but what's it actually going to cost at your meter, right, when you pay for it. And we all know cost of living and especially energy prices are very top of mind for Americans right now. It's pretty topical. And your timing is perfect because we're about to actually this next week send our clients some research on this very point, and it's really thought-provoking. And if you don't, can I I'll give a few kind of highlights now because I think it will get to the heart of your question as well. So, firstly, if you look across the entire country, since 2024, average customer prices are up about 11%, but actually by more than 25% in some states, which is massive in such a short period of time. It's not, interestingly, it's not commodity price-driven. So, yes, we've we've got historically high gas prices, diesel prices were all paying at the pump because of the geopolitical situation and what's that what that's doing to things right, refining capacity, but that's not actually impacting the power prices that you, the consumer, are paying for. Henry Hub prices are actually not that materially different from where they were a couple of years ago. And if you go back to historic power price bites we had here in the US, two big ones we had in 2001 and 2006, for example, those were very commodity market driven through tight supply after things like Katrina and Rita and earlier events as well. But what's driving the price up? Yeah, so we're going to come to that. So that's the that's the interesting thing. So you take take kind of the commodity part of the table for a second. What we are also showing is that these jumps are not correlated to renewable energy penetration, right? Which is also sometimes things that people throw around. The data shows that states with more renewables don't necessarily have higher prices, or vice versa. So kind of part of that issue for a second. Take that one level down, even more interestingly, power price pressure is not necessarily correlated to the states with the most data center demand as well, right? Which again is part of the narrative at the moment. So the way you can frame this all up, it's actually quite helpful to think about the regional transmission organizations we have in the US, these RTOs. And if you compare, Dan, for example, say ERCOT, which is Texas, versus PJM, which is Mid-Atlantic and some Midwest states, the difference is really stark. So a consumer in Texas right now pays about 15 cents a kilowatt hour at their meter. You uh in PJM, people like you, Dan, you're paying 21-22 cents a kilowatt hour. Um that's that's in Pennsylvania, actually. I know you're in New Jersey, but not that far away. Um if you look at Texas and Pennsylvania, they both had massive data center build out. Texas has had a lot of cheap renewables on the grid a lot in the last few years. Yeah. But it's getting the power onto the grid much faster. The average interconnection time in PJM, places like Pennsylvania, is over seven years, believe it or not. In Texas, it's two, right? Right. Now that's that's pretty dramatic. So as a country, we're very slow to get new megawatts onto the grid, and there's a lot of buried hard and soft costs driving up that meter cost for you, the consumer, right? Beating into that, two more really quick data points I'll mention. Outside of renewables, because it's obviously relevant for the broader grid, gas turbine prices are up nearly 200% since 2024. And the weight to get a gas turbine ramp now is about six years if you order one today. And then other costs that we all are talking a lot about, transmission and switch gear, right? Wires and all the stuff that kind of gets the power to you. That's also gone up by about 85% in the last couple of years, mainly due to tariffs, actually. So there's a lot, there's a lot buried there, Dan, and it's and it's again. I think about um, you know, you sitting in the great state of New Jersey, for example, and and you're within PJM, and when you put all that together, what we've seen is things like this massive jump in your capacity price, which feeds into your your meter, your payment as well, Dan, your your cost of electricity. So that that has gone up for you from um 29 megawatt, $20 per megawatt day in uh 2024 to over 300 today. Wow. So if you again, summary, we need to build it all faster, with less embedded equipment costs and less embedded regulatory and financing costs as well. That's what's really kind of we're thinking stuff we're thinking about at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, I mean look, I I see it in especially in the summer with the the the AC going, and I I won't get into the details of my electricity bill because then people will find out how many AC units I've got and I'll I'll probably get lynched. Um but yeah, that look the power prices have been uh have been going crazy. I think there's a lot of um I think you just touched on it there, and maybe we won't go too far down this rabbit hole to want to come back and talk about crux, but um one of the reasons that a lot of these data centres have been um uh you know or that a lot of these data centre projects are not happening is due to I think they're polling uh uh minus 80 uh in terms of popularity for people to to support data centres in their area, and that's one of the reasons is that people have been fed what looks to me like misinformation, that this is the reason that the data centres are gonna are gonna hoover up all the power and and uh and and you know you're gonna be paying more.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah, I think I think that's fair, and and I agree we shouldn't we we could do a whole separate podcast on data centres, but I could I think also that's why I mentioned some of that other stuff just now, because I think although it's it's less it's less headline grabbing, there's a lot of the in other embedded costs around wires and transmission and interconnection and regulatory costs as actually really driving a lot of the kind of issues we've got with power prices, but you know, yeah, data centers become an easy target, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Exactly. And and and to your point, I saw Alfred's post on LinkedIn. I met Alfred the other night you know at the event, and um yeah, and I and I saw on his on his way back to DC he he posted about the you know the speed and efficiency of in terms of building the grid, and he compared that to China and the speed at which they're building the grid. Because that's really the existential, certainly from an AI perspective, that's the existential race and and and and and powering the the race is is is is key. And it was really stark the comparison between the two the two countries.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, no, for sure. He I think he was also he put some great stats about um transmission build out between the two countries, which is just night and day.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah, I recommend people to go look for Alfred's post on on LinkedIn. Um so so so look that so then what's the solution gonna be in technologies, and this is I think a good insight into you, and you've been at the heart of this space for many years. You know all the developers, you understand all the technologies. Give us an insight from your perspective. What are you back? What's the what specifically in terms of technologies is the solution gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, um, I am really excited about battery storage, actually. I think that's got a really important role to play. Um, our make our market data shows it's one of the fastest growing sectors in the US at the moment in the clean energy space. If you if you think, and and let's let's use an example to show why it's really interesting at the moment. You look at a state like California, they've really lent into this technology and the impact it's having for them on this so-called duck curve, which you may have heard about, Dan, it's a bit a bit of a wonky concept to explain what we talk about being net load, right? So that's really the demand left over after you take out renewables. So what happens is in places like California, in many states in the US, obviously solar is now doing a huge amount of the work during the middle of the day, you know, making loads of power, you know, sort of uh late morning through to early afternoon, and then other forms of generation have to kick in in the evening time when we're all cooking and bathing our kids and so on and so forth. And batteries have really helped flatten that duct curve out. And um a few weeks ago I saw actually a really interesting stat showing that California during an evening peak had used batteries for 12 gigawatts of demand, which is quite remarkable when you think how quickly this tech has come from being a bit of a kind of sideshow to being really, really important for the for the grid. And then, you know, building on that in terms of the tech itself, to the heart of your question, right now, all that's really coming from lithium-ion technology, which are really shorter duration batteries. So they kick in, they do their job for about four hours, then they're done. So you can kind of think of them as like the sprinters, you know, short distance but fast. And then what's really exciting down, I think, is then now, in addition to that, lithium iron is really important for sure, but we've got some of these newer longer duration battery technologies like the marathon runners to think about, yeah, which dispatch for over a hundred hours. So at Crux, we're actually working with a number of these manufacturers on financing solutions, and it's really exciting to see what they can bring to the market. So, very bullish on batteries. Um, I think do you want me to touch on a couple of others as well?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah, absolutely. And a quick interjection for anyone who wants a deeper dive on the duck curve. I was I was in LA last week for the for the all-in summit, and Brad Gershner gave an unbelievable talk, which is on YouTube and Spotify and all about that. And so you could he did a real deep dive into it. So I did know what the duck curve was. There you go. Um look, so so and beyond battery storage, absolutely tell a tell us what else you believe in, but also, if you will, what's a dud? What's like a what's a science project dressed up as a term sheet? And don't say SMRs because I'm invested in SMRs.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

No, well, um actually funny, I haven't I haven't done nuclear for a very long time, but uh that was the last thing I worked on in the Middle East before I left. Um I I think I think um there's a few challenges out there. Like without without a carbon tax of some sort or a true cost on carbon, I think CC CCUS is still not going to be a huge feature of where we see a lot of capital going, and at least in the short to medium term. Um green hydrogen was was talked about quite a bit. Um effectively, that was slightly gutted with the one big beautiful bill with the 45 V tax credit that got got scaled back dramatically. And then um, I mean you mentioned SMRs, Dan. I think I think they're a super interesting technology. And again, I've done I've worked on nuclear back in the day, but again, just given commercialization and regulatory approval timelines, and there's actually a lot of competing reactor designs out there at the moment, I don't see that reaching widespread deployment in the short term, right? Yeah, not I think the technology is super interesting, but when we're talking about this immediate kind of call to action for getting power on the grid, I think I think SMRs are still still a few years away. Too far behind.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

A little bit, a little bit. It'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

So look, let's talk about crux. As I said before, everyone's talking about crux. Um they seemingly came out of nowhere. I was saying to Alfred the other night, I just can't believe where you've gotten to in under four years, like three and a half years or something like that. Um it's something very different and very new, which we've not been used to. We've been used to a very set way of doing things and the same set players doing things in the same way. Um so look for our listeners, please give yeah, give us the overview what is Crux, what's it trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah, uh give you. The one-sentence mission statement. So Crux is modernizing deployment of capital to clean energy and critical infrastructure projects. That's the one sentence answer to your question. What that translates to is we support developers, IPPs, manufacturers, and investors on both sides of these deals. We serve as one central partner across the Capstack, including transferable tax credits, tax equity, preferred equity, and debt. And really, Dan, you know, we've got an incredible team of experts who come from energy, finance, development, tax policy worlds, and we're building really smart technology tools to amplify that human expertise and arm every deal with market-leading data intelligence. That's really our special source.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

So so how is Crux going to solve the problem? We just talked about the problem. Yeah. How is um, yeah, because we can come at this from different angles in terms of what what this is changing in the competitive landscape? I think some some institutions out there might be slightly worried about, you know, that they quite like the status quo, making a lot of money out of it. And I think Crux is going to shake that up, so I want to talk about that. But just first of all, in terms of solving the actual problem, how is Crux going to help?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah, and look, um, I'm on a personal level, I'm loving being able to take what I've learned through 25 years of global infrastructure experience and applying it through that that new lens we've just been getting into. And and as I was saying, we're a tech-led organization, right? So all our systems and processes are built bottom up in that mindset versus trying to rewire kind of decades of legacy ways of working. And it and it's interesting, um, Crux was founded around the same time the AI boom really started coming to fruition. And while the growth of AI is a hot topic in the energy infrastructure space right now, the growth of AI also presents a huge opportunity for building a new type of financial services company, not just leveraging AI for purposes of scale, but also how we use AI to capture all the learnings from what we do, right? And the value to our clients. So, you know, we we've got we've got a really talented team, as I said, from a really diverse range of backgrounds, and we're actually then when you boil that all down, we're able to set up an innovative product slate and do and put solutions together very quickly for our clients that would typically take a lot longer for some of those market incumbents.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah, look, I look, can confirm, I was there the other night, I met a lot of the crooks team, and it was like it was really refreshing actually. It was it was kind of like Silicon Valley has arrived in Wall Street with a British accent. Lots of different accents, actually, across the across, you know, um mainly Americans, but but um there was one Australian that I accused of being South African, if I remember correctly, but um you know, a diverse team, but yeah, a a different vibe, a real energy and positivity. But for you personally, you know, you had a good life in banking. I don't want to make you blush, but very popular in the industry, could have gone to work for pretty much any bank uh you wanted to, could have gone to a debt fund, um, but you've come to this, you've come to really, I think, take a risk, an exciting challenge, but it's you've come to take a risk. What is it that you think you can do from this side of the table with crooks that you couldn't have done staying inside a bank?

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah, that's very kind of you, Dan. I mean, look, I don't think about it as a risk. I think, look, this market, um, I believe will look quite different in 10 years' time, and I think crops will be a key part of that. I know crops will be a key part of that. Um, in like in many many markets, right? Energy is a sector in which policy can create headwinds or tailwinds, but every single year, for a number of years now, the markets continue to grow in size and diversity through all the all the kind of you know headwind challenges we know about. Demand for energy is growing. That's not gonna change. The growth in infrastructure needed to support that demand is absolutely massive, and that's not slowing down anytime soon. And, you know, in my view, Dan, the genie isn't going back in the bottle with technology and the pace of innovation, right? That's also not something I think we're just gonna suddenly decide it was a bad idea and we all go back to paper and pens and fax machines. So we're gonna continue to see growth in novel technologies and new technologies coming to market we haven't even dreamed of yet, right? If I think about where we were 10 years ago, Dan, the stuff that you and I have been talking about, I couldn't have predicted 10 years ago. So all those things are gonna need capital and a lot of it. And I see increased demand from clients for all those themes to be connected in a way, in the way they source capital and deploy it, right? And crux has grown rapidly in a few years, as you said, and continue to evolve ahead of the market, and we're gonna be at the epicenter of it all, in my view. And um, you know, then I was thinking hopefully in a few years' time you can have me back on the podcast, and we'll see if I was right.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Well, look, there's so you've you've teeded me up for the for the big close. Because there are two things I wanted to get you to to to say. I mean, so one is it's great to have you as a guest on a podcast because you were there. I've just remembered I was your guest on the CIBC podcast. Yeah, uh you used to run the podcast. Um, but we'll definitely have you back on the podcast. And um, but look, what will success look like if you're coming back on the podcast in five years' time and saying yes, crooks was a success, what will have been achieved for you? What what what's the the sort of the the landmark, the north star that you guys are looking for where you'll say, Yeah, we've achieved it.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, look, I'm not gonna uh I'm not gonna talk about lead tables, I don't care about things like lead tables. Um but I believe that um crops will be the first word on someone's mind when they think about looking for a solution for all the stuff we've just talked about. You need a a fast, executable, different way of doing your deal across all the cap stack um and a creative solution for getting your project financed or investing in a project, the first person you come to is crops. That's successfully.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Very clear. Um and and look, I like to end by getting someone to in especially in a situation like this where there's something new, a challenge that you're that you're embarking on on a on a journey. Yeah, make a prediction. I mean, it's I actually you piqued my interest there when you're talking about the what's the next new technology? What's the what's gonna emerge? You're seeing a lot of this stuff that a lot of our listeners maybe are slight, slightly lagging behind, might not be a might not have the insight you've got.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

I don't know. I'm not by my nature contrarian, but what I said, I think it's I'm gonna come I'm gonna no it's a great question. I'm gonna come back to what I said earlier. I think um in a few years' time we're not gonna be talking about all these novel battery technologies as being novel. I think they're gonna be uh standard standard practice everywhere everywhere you look on the grid, in people's homes, in people's cars. We haven't even talked about EVs during this conversation, Dan, but I'm super, super sort of uh enthusiastic about the uh evolution of the car market with these technologies, you know, batteries that charge in less than five minutes, you know, it's just unbelievable. So I think um we're gonna be talking and financing and deploying technologies in the battery space that are not even being talked about today, I think, in a very, very short period of time. And we're seeing some of those coming through already at Crux. We're working with some of those early stage manufacturers, and I think that's gonna be a game changer for the landscape.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

What do you think about because I'm gonna close, but just just on that point as a secondary uh aspect. The other day I was looking at a uh a teaser on an uh for an investment for McCarthy Ventures on on contactless charging. So so, which seems to me to be very timely in the sense that autonomous vehicles need to charge, but an autonomous vehicle can't necessarily plug itself in. Yeah. It goes a step further and talks about cars being able to dynamically charge. In other words, you would pave roads with essentially solar panels that that charge the car as it drives along.

unknown 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Have you got any view on those?

SPEAKER_00 30:17

I wish that I like you, I've been reading those press releases. I think they're amazing. I'm not I'm not a car expert, then I will say I'm a car fan, like I'm a personal you know, car fan. I've had I've had a I've had an EV for a couple of things I'll quickly say. I've had an EV for seven years now. Um it's been in the shop twice for changing tyres and wiper blades in seven years. So that's just a little data point that I love. And and um, but no, look, I mean, I I'm not an expert in those contactless charging solutions. I've seen the press releases like you said. I think they're amazing, the work what I've been reading about. And again, like if you've got some of these batteries that I've been seeing coming out of China and some of these manufacturers at the moment, where they will say there's they're looking at like sort of six, seven, eight hundred miles of range, and you can charge it in less than five minutes. I mean that that just if you think about that for a second, that is a game changer. So I'm I'm bullish on that technology.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Look, the the future's bright. Um it's gonna be very interesting to see where things go. Uh, really appreciate you coming on the podcast and giving us some of your insights. Uh, as I've as I've said, you know, I've I've we've had a long relationship, I've really enjoyed it. Looking forward to continuing to work with you, uh, and I think you're you know widely regarded as one of the nicest guys out there in the industry. Wish you all the luck in the world with Crooks, and uh I'll see you very soon.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, thank you, Dan. Really appreciate you having me on the